The men in the U.S. military’s most dangerous jobs care little about political correctness or gender equality. And they have a message for their political leadership.
When they are fighting in the shadows or bleeding on the battlefield, women have no place on their teams.
In blunt and, at times, profanity-laced answers to a voluntary survey conducted by the Rand Corp., more than 7,600 of America’s special operations forces spoke with nearly one voice. Allowing women to serve in Navy SEAL, Army Delta or other commando units could hurt their effectiveness and lower the standards, and it may drive men away from the dangerous posts.
An overwhelming majority of those who agreed to respond to the RAND survey said they believe women don’t have the physical strength or mental toughness to do the grueling jobs.
Some of the broader conclusions of the survey, taken from May through July 2014, were disclosed by The Associated Press earlier this year, but the detailed results and comments written by respondents had not been released.
The Pentagon released the summer survey and other documents when Defense Secretary Ash Carter announced last week that he was opening all combat jobs to women. That decision was based on recommendations by the military service secretaries and the leaders of the Army, Navy, Air Force and Special Operations Command. Only the Marine Corps asked to exempt women from certain infantry and frontline positions, but Carter denied that request.
Half the men who got the 46-question survey responded to it, and Rand did not identify any of them. In some cases people who feel most strongly about an issue are more inclined to answer surveys.
Some 85 percent of the respondents said they oppose opening the special operations jobs to women, and 70 percent oppose having women in their individual units. More than 80 percent said women aren’t strong enough and can’t handle the demands of the job. And 64 percent said they aren’t mentally tough enough.
“I weigh 225 pounds, and 280 pounds in full kit, as did most of the members of my ODA (a 12-man Army Green Beret unit),” one respondent said. “I expect every person on my team to be able to drag any member of my team out of a firefight. A 130 pound female could not do it, I don’t care how much time she spends in the gym. Do we expect wounded men to bleed out because a female soldier could not drag him to cover?”
Another said politicians don’t win the covert wars.
“Gender equality is not an option when the bullets are flying,” he said. “Most males in the area of the world I work in would rather back hand a female than listen to her speak. There is a reason we send men to do these jobs.”
Some saw it as inevitable.
“This integration will happen eventually and we might as well embrace it while we have current solid leadership and incoming solid leadership at the top to facilitate the transition,” one said.
The deep challenges the survey revealed with integrating women into tight-knit commando teams are not lost on the Pentagon. Gen. Joseph Votel, head of U.S. Special Operations Command, posted a memo and video online last week after Carter’s announcement, explaining the decision and vowing that the qualifying standards for special operations jobs will remain the same.
He noted that women have already moved into some special operations jobs, including as helicopter pilots and crew, members of cultural support teams in Afghanistan and in civil affairs and information operations.
And he added, “If candidates meet time-tested and scientifically validated standards, and if they have proven that they have the physical, intellectual, professional, and character attributes that are so critical to special operations, they will be welcomed into the special operations forces ranks.”
The Rand report noted that many of the men had little experience working with women in combat. And special operations officials have said they expect the challenges can be overcome with training and direction over time.
The services have until Jan. 1 to submit implementation plans that would address such issues.
The bulk of those who responded to the survey were young, white married men. They worry that having women in their small teams could fuel jealousy at home or create problems with sexual harassment or illicit affairs. And they rely on and trust their teams and units as family.
Ninety-eight percent agreed that their unit is united in trying to accomplish its missions. But when asked whether men and women in a unit would be united to accomplish a mission, only 48 percent said yes. Nearly 33 percent said no, and almost 20 percent were undecided.
And nearly 60 percent said they expected that women assigned to their unit would be “treated unfairly” at least some of the time.
Some, however, said they might be willing for women to serve in some, more peripheral special operations jobs. Several suggested that women could be used as attachments or additions to some units, just not as actual members, such as the cultural support jobs they fill now.
The Associated Press contributed to this article.
How about putting Ash Carter on the front lines along with women that don’t have the physical strength to carry his wounded ass out of harms way, and see how he feels then. Fire and police departments lowered their physical strength standards to accommodate women, and while they are still there, they are next to worthless carrying a 150 pound fire hose, or backing up an officer in a fight. Yet they are paid the same as a man that could do the job. Political correctness is killing our nation.
I am so sick of some women trying to be men, I could throw up.What the hell are these misfits trying to prove? A woman is supposed to be feminine , based on how I was brought up. Guess things are not as they used to be. We were not born as a unisex gender, but as men and women. This does not mean a woman should be home bound with children, cleaning and cooking constantly. But it sure does mean that a woman should not be engaged in combat. I guess some women just want to act like men.
They don’t belong I am and was a strong woman man have I messed up my body showing that I was strong we are not made for mans work there is a difference and these stupid women are showing it by demanded to be a man we can do a lot of jobs that won’t distroy are health and body, tired of these idiots trying to put us the same we are not.
Amen, god said in the Bible , the woman was the weaker vessel..we were created to have the babies, raise our families, and be the keepers of our homes.love our husbands,and train up our children, and the ways of god. men have for far to long failed to stand up for what once was. go back to the earlier days, and see just how bad it all has changed.young men and women, don’t know what their rolls are anymore in life. this needs to change all over our country, and we’ll be a blessed nation again. don’t fear political correctness, fear the word of god, and he will bless this nation again. Please believe it’s all so true… KJV bible start reading in book of John.new testament..
Thanks for saying, Diana.
Will SecDef “Ashhole” Carter listen? No way. Next, we’ll have totally Islamic Special Forces units. They won’t be called “Snake Eaters”, but “Goat F…ers”. Way-to-go, O’Bummer! Allahu Akbar!
Will, why don’t you say what you really feel…
I hear ya.
I am the widow of SGT Joseph Kennedy and thus qualified to speak on this subject. Sorry feminists, the elite in our military forces don’t need women in these specialized units! This is not a gender issue. My husband in full ACUs with ruck sack and all the trimmings was unmovable. I could barely wrap my arms around him when he was off to work. There’s no way a woman could FULLY meet the CONSTANT physical and mental AND EMOTIONAL demands of this part of the military. Females: stay in your lane.
Karen, the special forces…especially, the Navy SEALs are not big men. They are agile.
Why not have all women seal teams? If they can carry the load who cares.
Yes!
The Vietnamese used women all the time. Most were from hard background’s plus they have been fighting outsider’s for many,many year’s. The key was, the Vietnamese did not need a ton of equipment to fight you.
I have a whole different view. I served in the military with wimpy men and wimpy women. I served with strong men and strong women. I disagree and if you have ever seen Kurdish women fighting ISIS on Youtube.com, you would think differently. I served my whole career in the military. Women can do exactly what the men do and there are men who cannot. You can speak for yourself and how you feel but, stereotyping every person does not make it true for the whole. And, women who serve…do not necessarily want to be “men”, they want to serve their country and they want to be free to do so. Whether they can qualify is a different story.
I will tell you what I did experience, though. Discrimination and Good ole boy system where if you don’t sleep with me, you aren’t going anywhere. I could whip circles around them in the job I did but, was never going to get the credit because I did not sleep with them and believed in equality for African-Americans, women and anyone who performed their job with exemplary performance. Why should they not receive the same as those who did not perform their jobs but, were the drinking buddy?
I say…whoever it is that can get the job done and do it well. It doesn’t matter if they are a man or woman. It is their choice if they qualify. And, it doesn’t mean they want to be a man.
Just wanted to add that I did not mean that you do not have the right to your own opinion but, I would liken it to…working women. Back in the day, it was frowned upon if a women worked in any position other than low paying jobs. However, I can assure you if a woman was a widow or had a disabled husband who could not work or was divorced due to abuse by her husband, she HAD to get out and work to raise her children in a society that did not want her there. She would be considered “trying to do a man’s job” when she was probably simply trying to survive with her children on more than nothing for wages.
You have to be careful when making broad judgments is all I am trying to say. Sometimes walking in someone else’s moccasins might hurt your feet.
The Israeli experience was that most women just could not meet the rigors of combat and eliminated women from combat positions. Not that there could not have been exceptionally large and strong women who could do the job–just that women, in general were not equipped mentally or physically for combat. Not that men are, but they adapt quickly or get out. We do have an all-volunteer army after all. Men have a unique ability to “compartmentalize” their emotions and move forward (not all men, mind you–that is why there were always some who would wash out of combat roles).
Physically, most women cannot cut it–they are simply not strong enough, nor are they built the same as men–and military equipment is designed for the use of the typical male soldier. At every age, girls are more prone to injury during rough and tumble–that’s just the way they are made. Ask any coach who coaches women. He / she will tell you that male and female athletes are constructed differently–and that makes a difference in performance. Just take one example: coaches of female athletes have known for a long time that women are almost ten times as likely to get an AC ligament tear in the knee than a male athlete–because of the anatomical fact that a women’s wider hip ratio to femur length brings added stress to knee structures. Climbing is also more difficult for women than men–because of the same anatomical differences–and climbing is definitely a skill that you would want a commando to have!
Exactly right Jay. And also, most special forces units, especially the Navy SEALS, do a lot of swimming and diving. Women can’t swim, and especially scuba dive, when she is on her menstrual period. She increases her chances of getting nitrogen narcosis and bends because her body increases her red blood cell content to counteract the blood she is losing. That increase in red blood cells collects more nitrogen while underwater, which is what causes the bends and narcosis. I had a friend of mine I wanted to come swimming with a few years ago in Turkey, but she said she couldn’t go because the cold water would exacerbate her cramps. But that doesn’t matter to liberals. The only thing that matters to liberals is political correctness. That counts more than anything else, and anyone who disagrees is a bigot, racist, sexist, homophobe, etc. PC is killing our society!
most SO’s can endure about anything but political correctness. Women do make good fighters in some instances but sometime are broken down mentally and physically on very long cold, wet muddy extended operations when they never know when the end is coming. In training their buddied help them get through it. In the real operational world every man must endure on his own without any assistance for long periods of time never knowing when “it” will end. By that time most women will already have their ass busted and are useless when it is time for the rubber to meet the road. Yes WOMEN can endure but what is the point to be proven? When it is all over and they are never the same living with a thousand yard stare and damaged minds’ bodies with constant pain what was it all for. We look for a trained operator to do twenty, a woman is a woman and will hang it up long before the twenty for woman reasons then we have lost out after wasting the time and cost of training. It is a no win situation with Women in SO. So what is the point of all this? It is just another area where the Obamo Admin can do more damage using political correctness. The World is changing and not for the better. There are more reasons not to do it than do it.
Since one of the beliefs of the ISIS types is that being killed by a female means they won’t get their “72 virgins;” I’d love to see (well selected & well qualified) female sniper teams used in such areas. Also, as pilots and bomb droppers/guiders. Then, make it VERY well known in those areas that, more than likely, any such death would be “at the hands of a woman…” LOL, that just might put quite a dent in their recruiting…
As a female who worked almost exclusively “male jobs” over her (almost 62 yr.) lifetime; worked circles around most of the men I worked with; and, despised the “twits and bimbos” who “wanted the job; but, not the work,” I would NOT support ANY “modifications of duty” for any women who applied for such jobs. In situations where it might be necessary to carry a team member to safety, all female teams might be needed; or, at least, some size grouping (which might better utilize some under-utilized – but otherwise qualified- male soldiers, as well.) There are already non-fraternization policies in place; but, these should be strictly enforced. I’m the first one to agree that 99.9% of females would NOT be able to handle the rigors of such training and duty; but, those who are willing to prove themselves SHOULD be utilized in this fight – ESPECIALLY given the “propaganda value” it would have against islamic recruiting efforts.
There are two basic problems with having women in any combat branch of the military:
First, scarce resources are being devoted to female soldiers, sailors, and airmen that could be better spent on the more proficient and durable male soldiers, sailors, and airmen.
Second, when women are introduced into a combat arena filled with men, the male mind is virtually always going to be distracted from the military mission to some degree, male bonding and unit cohesion will most definitely be reduced (as proven by at least 4 studies), sexual rivalries and tensions will break out (many actually started by the women), military discipline will suffer, and mission readiness and unit lethality reduced.
On this second point, some will argue that women’s effects on men are a male, not a female, problem and that women should not have to suffer because of male reactions. But the truth is that these effects are not just a male problem, they are a human-nature problem that must be acknowledged in the same way that other laws of nature must be acknowledged. Because we may not like, for example, the law of gravity does not mean that we may simply wish it away. That we may not want men and women together in close contact to result in sexual intercourse will in no way prevent that from happening. Human nature will inevitably take its natural course because of actions by men AND women, no matter how hard the social engineers among us may wish otherwise or even try to suppress it, with temporary success.
Remember, the modern military fights as a combat UNIT, not as individuals who happen to be working together. So, no matter how capable an individual woman might be, to introduce her into a combat unit will distract men from their military roles and diminish their effectiveness. And, as Kingsley Browne has observed, “The experience of the millennia is that men, not women, should serve as the community’s combatants.”
[Excerpted from my article “The Real Reasons Why Women Should Not Be Allowed in Combat”]
Way to put it Diana and Patricia. It’s good to know that even women disagree with this. That is because you are women who are in the right state of mind. Just because a man like myself is opposed to women serving in combat doesn’t mean I dislike or hate women! No! Just the opposite! I’m not a hater, but I’m realistic. It is bad enough we have to let our sons, brothers, and fathers go to war and some of them not come back. Do we want our daughters going to war and not coming back? Think about it! If they insist on women serving in combat, then they should NOT lower standards one bit and make them do everything men can. And the draft should also include women as well as men. And I don’t think parents are willing to let their daughters go to the front lines of war. Yes, you are so right! I’m also sick and tired of women trying to be men! If you are a woman, then be proud of it! Yes, God gave men greater physical strength for a reason! That is not to imply men are better because they are stronger physically-they are not! In some ways, women are better. And in the ways they are, let them use their strengths in order to serve society they way they were meant to, and stop going against the grain or the flow in order to try to be like men and try do things that they were not made to. I hope I made my point.
I took a poll of the women in my family and, interestingly, the younger ones were more adamant than the older ones, about women not serving in combat roles. They are Christians, so that may have some bearing. But it was telling, that one of the younger women noted, “What happens if one of the guys in your unit, makes sexual moves on you in a dug-in situation? How are any of the people in the unit going to get out of that gracefully? And how is that going to destroy cohesiveness in the unit? That will directly affect the unit’s effectiveness–and that will get people killed.”
The only hope I can see is that there are rigorous standards that are strictly enforced. That will eliminate a vast number of women from SO units.
Well now on my team we carried a lot of equipment, once during training at Camp Geiger we came out of the swamp and started washing off behind a buffalo, someone said there are women here put you clothes on, I replied they can look all they want. I also know Col. Carolyn Vaughn, MD, her husband at the time was an Air Force F-15 pilot. Her UH-1 Medivac was shot down and was raped repeatedly by the Iraqis in the back of a truck. They might have done the same to a man, but while I like her she put herself in an awkward situation that created a more dangerous situation.