On Monday, former President Donald Trump testified in New York state’s lawsuit against him as he continues his 2024 Republican primary campaigning for a return to the White House.
During the testimony, Judge Arthur Engoron snapped at the former president, scolded him, and told him to keep his answers concise.
“This is not a political rally,” Engoron said. “We don’t have time to waste. We have one day to do this.”
At another point, the judge turned to Trump’s attorney and said, “I beseech you to control him if you can. If you can’t, I will.”
Trump’s lawyer, Alina Habba, took issue with being “yelled at.”
While Trump’s presence on the stand was a vivid reminder of the legal battles he faces as he vies to reclaim the White House in 2024, it also functioned as a campaign platform to argue against the weaponization of government.
“I think this is a political witch hunt and she should be ashamed of herself,” Trump said, referring to New York state Attorney General Letitia James, a Democrat whose office brought the case. “This is the opposite of fraud. The fraud is her.”
James, who was in the courtroom, stared straight ahead at Trump as he spoke. Outside court, she said, “At the end of the day the only thing that matters are the facts and the numbers, and numbers, my friends, don’t lie.”
Habba responded, “Ms. James, I have a message for you: The numbers didn’t lie when you ran for governor, and that’s why you dropped out.”
Take a look at some statements from the day —
“I was told to sit down today. I was yelled at and I’ve had a judge who is unhinged slamming a table. Let me be very clear: I don’t tolerate that in my life, I’m not going to tolerate it here.”
— Donald Trump’s lawyer Alina Habba rips Judge Arthur Engoron pic.twitter.com/5gV6cKxeQT
— The Recount (@therecount) November 6, 2023
“[NY AG Letitia James] said this morning that the numbers don’t lie and they won’t lie in this case. Well, Ms. James, I have a message for you: The numbers didn’t lie when you ran for governor, and that's why you dropped out.”
— Donald Trump’s lawyer Alina Habba pic.twitter.com/Dhclhn2drO
— The Recount (@therecount) November 6, 2023
Former President Donald Trump speaks before he takes the stand for his civil fraud trial. pic.twitter.com/nuElBRUMEi
— NEWSMAX (@NEWSMAX) November 6, 2023
Besides the civil trial, Trump is facing four criminal indictments, with each one in a different location. He’s been hopscotching between campaign events and court hearings… and he’ll only intensify this schedule after the start of his four criminal trials.
As weaponization of government has become a salient issue, Trump has been addressing his legal issues while on the campaign trail. On Truth Social, he alternates between posting about Judge Engoron and posting about his challenger’s for the GOP’s presidential primary.
“I’m worth billions of dollars more than the financial statements,” Trump said Monday. He told a state lawyer, “You go around and try and demean me and try and hurt me, probably for political reasons.”
Tensions between Engoron and Trump, already on display last month when the judge fined him $10,000 for incendiary outside-of-court comments, were evident Monday when the judge repeatedly snapped about the length and content of Trump’s answers.
“Mr. Kise, can you control your client? This is not a political rally. This is a courtroom,” Engoron told Trump lawyer Christopher Kise, who himself has clashed with the judge. Kise responded that Trump was entitled to latitude as a former president and current candidate taking time away from the campaign to be on the witness stand.
“The court needs to hear what he has to say about these statements, why they’re viable and why there was no intent” to deceive anyone, Kise said.
Engoron, who determined in a ruling earlier that Trump committed fraud for years while building the real estate empire that catapulted him to fame, cautioned at one point that he was prepared to draw “negative inferences” against the former president if he failed to rein in his answers.
“I do not want to hear everything this witness has to say. He has a lot to say that has nothing to do with the case or the questions.”
Despite the testy back-and-forth early in the day, Trump was later able to give expansive answers without anyone cutting him off, using the opportunity to rail against James and the proceedings in general.
Trump also sought to downplay his involvement in preparing and assessing the Trump organizations financial statements.
“All I did was authorize and tell people to give whatever is necessary for the accountants to do the statements,” he said. As for the results, “I would look at them, I would see them, and maybe on some occasions, I would have some suggestions.”
He also downplayed the significance of the statements, which went to banks and others to secure financing and deals. As he had in the lead-up to testifying, Trump pointed to a disclaimer that he says amounted to telling recipients to do their own calculating.
“Banks didn’t find them very relevant, and they had a disclaimer clause — you would call it a worthless statement clause,” he said, insisting that after decades in real estate, “I probably know banks as well as anybody … I know what they look at. They look at the deal, they look at the location.”
When the ex-president discussed why his financial statements listed his Trump Tower penthouse as three times its actual size, he said it was possible “we made a mistake,” hypothesizing that someone working for him multiplied the square-footage of each Trump Tower floor — about 10,000 square feet — by three, without subtracting the size of elevator shafts and other non-apartment space.
Trump said the inflated size also may have resulted from adding in Trump Tower’s roof, testifying: “I have the roof, you know, we have access to the roof, which is very big.” Regardless, he said: “We have a disclaimer clause which is, you don’t have to get sued by the attorney general of the state of New York.”
Trump also slammed Engoron, saying the judge allowed state lawyers to pursue claims involving such years-old documents “because he always rules against me.”
Engoron said: “You can attack me in whichever way you want but please answer the questions.”
The Horn editorial team and the Associated Press contributed to this article.